Fixing the generational wealth gap

WOMAN WITH AMERICAN ACCENT:
Are millennials spoiled babies? The accusation this time came in a video that has gone viral —

MAN WITH AMERICAN ACCENT:
“Generation Snowflake.” That’s a label thrown around a lot lately, but what exactly does it mean?

MAN WITH AMERICAN ACCENT:
“OK, Boomer.” It’s the millennials’ newest clapback directed at baby boomers.

MALE COMEDIAN:
They’re baby boomers. They went from “love is all you need” to “whoever winds up with the most toys wins.”

SECOND MALE COMEDIAN:
You ever taken a smartphone away from a 20-something? They don’t know what to do, they look like they got hit with a shovel. “I should’ve learned how to talk to people.”

ASTRA TAYLOR:
People are not in debt because they live beyond their means. They’re in debt because they are denied the means to live.

JAYATHMA WICKRAMANAYAKE:
We have to also find ways how to work through the systems to enter into the formal political arena if we are to sustain that change.

WOMAN WITH AMERICAN ACCENT:
Hi there!

MAN WITH AMERICAN ACCENT:
Hi!

WOMAN: I thought we’d have a chocolate mousse for supper.

MAN: The wrong time of year. Moose are out of season.

[LAUGH TRACK]

FATEMA HEDAYAT: My name is Fatema Hedayat, and I do everything my sister tells me to.

NELUFAR: So we’re driving around an area called Hampstead, and you and I have grown up in this area.

FATEMA: Yeah.

NELUFAR: Hampstead is a quintessentially beautiful part of North London. In the summer, we grew up going to the park, picking gooseberries and having snowball fights down the street in the winter. But it also has famous actors, writers and, well, rich people coming out of every mews and cul de sac.

FATEMA: It’s very…pretty. It’s very…what the rest of London tries to be, but doesn’t have the space to be. I feel like this was built before housing was an issue.

NELUFAR: Yeah.

NELUFAR: Oh, my God. This woman is going to attack me. I need to reverse! I’m going to hit the car. Please go back. Yes! Oh, my God! Wow.

NELUFAR: Oh, my God, it’s so expensive.

FATEMA: That’s like a mini Hogwarts.

NELUFAR: [LAUGHS] It looks like a castle. It’s got turrets!

[SOUND OF DOOR KNOCKER]

NELUFAR: I think Viv is inside.

ESTATE AGENT: Hello, hi! One sec. Come on in, come in.

FATEMA: Thank you!

VIVIENNE: You know, I mean, again, we’ve had something in Kenwood at over £6 million. They sold it for slightly under what I thought it was worth. So they were probably £100, £150 under where they should have been on price.

NELUFAR: [UNDER BREATH] Oh god.

NELUFAR: Oooh, which way should we go?

VIVIENNE: I’d start in the front, I think, probably the best place. And then we can work our way ’round.

VIVIENNE: The people who lived here were very clever in terms of use of space, so they’ve made loads of storage. So in fact they’ve dropped the ceiling there so you can get your suitcases and things out there.

NELUFAR: Oh, wow. That’s actually quite a genius move.

VIVIENNE: It’s one of the most affordable that we have in Hampstead, and we’ve got some interest on it currently. Asking price is just under £600,595.

NELUFAR: Do you think you’ll be able to ever buy a home where you want, where you grew up, where you feel like you have roots and where you deserve to live? Do you think that you’ll be able to do that?

FATEMA: Oh, no. Just simply put, no. I enjoy every moment of living at home for that reason because I know that when I move out, I probably won’t be living in more central to London. I’ll have to move out, I’ll have to probably look outside London. So it’s a massive shame.

FATEMA: It is what it is, and this is how it is. And I don’t see it ever changing.

VIVIENNE: It’s really upsetting, you know, and I do feel sorry for the young people today. It’s really, really difficult. And unless you’ve got family members or an inheritance or somebody who is prepared to help you out, I honestly don’t know how young people get on the property ladder.

VIVIENNE: There is that tilt going on now, with a lot of the younger people that I talk to, go into rented properties saying, “You know what, we want to live a life. We want to go on holidays, we want to go out to eat” — especially after COVID — “we want to have a drink. We want to have fun with our friends. We’re not going to put a noose around our necks.”

ASTRA: We see, especially the younger generation, absolutely crushed by student loans. The younger generation is also crushed by medical debt. We see people, you know, putting basic necessities on credit cards. And so what you have is a society where an increasing number of people have negative net worth. Their dream, now, the American dream today, is to get out of debt. It’s to have zero dollars.

NELUFAR: Oh, my God. Is it really that bad?

ASTRA: It’s really that bad. So I’m going to be even more morbid. There was a statistic that came out before the pandemic that said the average American person dies $62,000 in debt. So this is really, I mean, this is a problem, too, because debt isn’t just, it’s not just money you owe. There’s all this research that shows it stresses you out. It makes people sicker, it has psychological effects. And the thing is, it didn’t used to be this way. What’s really unfair is that we have, you know, people who are going to college and they’re trying to get ahead in life and they’re graduating with $30,000, $40,000, $50,000, sometimes $100,000, sometimes $200,000 of debt. But their parents didn’t do that. There’s certain economic and social relations that were just part of the society at that time. So, you know, in terms of economic equality in the United States, it was just a way more economically egalitarian times. Like, union membership was way higher, you could go to college basically for free, or you could work a minimum job and pay for it. So I think it’s just important to actually depersonalize the debates between the generations and just look at the social conditions and what’s changed in the economy.

NELUFAR: Can you talk to me a little bit about how generational differences sit within this wheelhouse of wealth and cumulation — like, to be rich kind of means to be old, right?

ASTRA: Generally speaking, you know, the older generation has way more wealth. And that’s because they were able to buy property at a time when it was more affordable. And also their mortgages, their — so their loans were subsidized by government programs after the World War II and the New Deal period. And so then you have a younger generation that, just in general, the younger generation is more diverse racially, they’re poorer. And they just have, a lot of them have negative assets because they have student loan debt, because they have medical debt and because wages have stagnated. Again, this is the big problem, is that they’re also working at jobs where they’re just paid less. The value of what they earn is less than it used to be. So there’s a definite generational dimension. And what it means is, in the United States that we have really robust welfare programs for old people. So we have, again, Social Security. We have Medicaid. So basically health care for people who are in their 60s, 70s, 80s and beyond. But what happens is that, you know, young people aren’t getting the benefit of these programs. So it’s not just about income and wealth. It actually becomes about political power. So for me, it’s about going after this economic system, and we can’t all be the rich.

ASTRA: You know, I’m affluent too. The point is that people shouldn’t have to marry a rock star or happen to have bought Bitcoin at the right moment to be able to live a decent life. Right? These things were socially provisioned, and they can be again. Right. So I totally agree: We should define what, you know, being wealthy means for us personally, and what do I care about, what’s prosperity to me? But the fact is, if there’s some trillionaires out there determining, you know, whether or not we address climate change, that’s like an objective reality we have to contend with, and I think, try to resist and change.

NELUFAR: Astra, it could be that young people are spending all of their money on avocado toasts, on holidays to Dubai, on brand new iPhones. And they’re just not spending that money responsibly. They’re not saving, they don’t care to save, they’re just being frivolous. And it’s more important to look rich than to be economically safe.

ASTRA: Avocado toast is good! I mean, it tastes good. I love that avocado toast is the bane of your generation. I mean, I’m 40, so, you know, I’m too old for avocados, but I find it hilarious, because it’s these people who are acting like they’re so economically sensible, and they’re like, “Oh, silly you. If you just didn’t eat this toast, you’d have a house,” you know, and, “You’d have a good paying job.” And again, it ignores these macroeconomic conditions that people are in. And, you know, it’s just indisputable that when people put things on their credit cards, it’s generally necessities. Like a huge portion of credit card debt in the United States is medical bills. I want to ground us in a phrase, this is a phrase that we use at the Debt Collective: People are not in debt because they live beyond their means. They’re in debt because they are denied the means to live.

NELUFAR: What should the right balance be between the personal responsibility to make sure that you’re economically safe, and this concept of redistribution of wealth?

ASTRA: I think we have to begin by getting our heads around the degree of wealth inequality, not just in the United States, but in the world. Right? So, you know, people talk about the pandemic causing what’s called a K-shape recovery. And what that means is that people who are doing well before the pandemic are recovering, they’re doing great. Right? And the people who were struggling are being pushed further down. But there’s a catchphrase in the United States, and I hope it spreads, right, which is “abolish billionaires.” And what I like to say is, we need to abolish billionaires before they become trillionaires. And again, the problem isn’t just the obscenity of people having that much wealth while other people are literally struggling and are food insecure and housing insecure. It’s that that wealth gets you political power, and that is unjust, right? Redistribution is actually not that radical when there’s so much at the top. So we have to have some class war spirit in us. So there’s that famous quote, who was it? Warren Buffett, right? And he said, “There’s a class war, and my side is winning it.” Right? So it doesn’t, I don’t think it serves our purpose if we want to live in a more kind of just society, I don’t think I don’t think we can get around the fact that we’re going to have to confront this extreme inequality and say, “Look, you have to give some up, you have to redistribute, you have to share.” You know, and maybe, “This really isn’t yours to begin with.”

NELUFAR: How do we get, like, the old people to give us our stuff back?

ASTRA: We do need to tax it back, we need to claw back this wealth and then you redistribute it, in my opinion, by investing in social services. I would like to see supports for young families.

NELUFAR: Yeah.

ASTRA: I would like to see supports for students. I would like to see public health care that is quality. I’d love to see investment in green infrastructure and green jobs. Right? Because this is something that, you know, young people will have to deal with more of the consequences of climate change than someone who’s in their 70s or 80s. That’s just a fact. So I think you redistribute through productive investment in the States. I’d also like to see, you know, in the state investing in worker-owned businesses and sort of other ways to restructure ownership so that wealth is spread around more instead of it being distorted by the shareholders.

NELUFAR: Astra Taylor, thank you soooooo much for talking to me.

ASTRA: Thank you. That was fun.

JAYATHMA: I think generally, there is an expectation that every new generation will lead a better life than the previous generation. I think it was the same from the silent generation to the baby boomers to Gen X to millennials and then to Gen Z. Even though sort of this expectation is there, I think particularly when it comes to the transition of wealth, but also I’d like to argue the transition of power from baby boomers to Gen X and Gen Z and millennials has not been very smooth. And definitely the wealth gap that exists between these different generations, particularly between baby boomers and millennials, is quite evident. And I also feel like there is a huge frustration, particularly among millennials and Gen Z, about the world that they are being sort of left with.

NELUFAR: So then…should we eat the rich?

JAYATHMA: [LAUGHS] I think this is also a massive conversation that needs to happen, I think, in between generations as well. There is a huge polarization between the generations, where young people are saying, “No you created a really terrible world for us. You left behind a really bad world in a very bad condition for us,” and the older generation’s saying, “Well, young people are only complaining and what are you doing about it?” I think the key is really to find where values align in both generations and to be able to have intergenerational conversations, intergenerational partnerships, that can lead us to create the world that is best for all generations. Because when Gen Z is out protesting every Friday calling for urgent climate action, they’re not asking for a better world just for themselves. They’re asking for a better world for all of us. So I think it’s very important that we try to move away from this polarization that sometimes also is being created through mainstream media, fake news and all of these misinformation campaigns in order to really understand who are our friends, who are our allies and how do we work across and among generations to bring about the change that we really need to bring?

NELUFAR: Let’s focus on the global south for a minute. Young people are like, “We don’t like the system. The system isn’t working.” The farmers in India, the climate change activists around the world, the way that large companies and governments often react to young advocates is almost dismissive. What do you suggest that young activists do to not only become these like, little, you know — just like, [MIMICS BABY TALK] “Oooh, look, you’re on the front cover of Time magazine.” [STERN VOICE] “Shh, now be quiet, the adults are talking.”

You know, like you must have seen it so many times in your career. I’d love for you to tell me maybe like a story or share something.

JAYATHMA: No, definitely. I think adults usually see young people and their activism as something that can be clapped at or, you know, you can pat the young person on the back, applaud their activism and then say, “OK, let the adults or, let those who hold the power decide what will actually happen with your demands or the ideas that you are proposing.” This has been happening for many years and many decades, but I think that more than millennials, Gen Zers are not ready to take this as an answer. And I think perhaps they’re more brave than we are in terms of also standing their ground and asking for accountability from those who hold power. I also see a fundamental shift, Nelufar, in the way that these two generations view power, and I think that baby boomers and the generations before us saw power as something that is very exclusive, that is limited to a few people, you know, exercised in secrecy behind closed doors, sort of men in suits making their decisions for the rest of the world. But Gen Z really sees power as something very fluid, very out there, very transparent. They see power in mobilization, not in institutionalization.

JAYATHMA: One of the things that I always talk to young people about when I meet them and we discuss about these frustrations is that when we embark on movements — as much as sometimes we can’t stand the systems, we have to also find ways how to work through the systems themselves. And as much as we sort of protest outside the parliaments or on the roads and demand for that change, we also need to make sure that we as a generation are empowered to enter into the formal political arena, run for political office, create that change within our political parties, within our own parliaments, municipalities, if we are to sustain that change.

NELUFAR: So now I want the gossip. I want to know of a real-life situation in which you encountered this generational gap.

JAYATHMA: One of the things that happened to me very early in my term, I was trying to get an event that I was doing accessible to people living with disabilities and people who speak other languages other than English. So I was pushing really hard. And one day I got a call from this very senior UN official who told me the same words, “You just got here. I was here for 30 years. And do you think by just pushing and writing emails, you will be able to create this change? Just try, keep trying, and maybe one day you will get there. But, you know, don’t try too much.” And he was really trying to sort of discourage me from pushing for that change. But I remember having some really powerful allies within the system itself who helped me bring about that change. And since then, we have always done events at the UN which are accessible to every young person in their diversity.

So I think by growing up in a world that is so affected by these multifaceted, multidimensional challenges, everywhere we look, we see crises, conflicts. Nel, I was born into a country affected by a 30-year-long war, and 20 years of my life, I lived in a war. I think it’s the same for you as well. I know many young people who have to live through that experience, not by choice, but because they were born into it. And we lived through the financial crises, we lived through a climate crisis. Now we are living through a pandemic. And I think this definitely gives us a lot of perspective on things that really matter in terms of the work we do and how important that every single thing we do has to be intersectional and has to be equally accessible to everyone around the world.

NELUFAR: What do you think that we, as young people, as millennials and Gen Z and Gen Alpha, because they’re coming, what should we all be doing to make the world more equitable generationally?

JAYATHMA: I think the answer in theory is quite simple, and I think the challenge is how to realize that in the real world. The answer for me is sharing power. I think the answer lies not in one generation, but the answer lies in little bits and pieces in different generations. We really need to come together and put those pieces of the puzzle together in order to find that magic answer that is going to solve the world’s problems. I also think that, as we see increased polarization among countries, between countries, within countries, across generations, between generations, within generations, we also need bridge builders. And I very strongly believe, for an example, my life’s purpose is to be a bridge builder, to bring the two extremes of a question together, to be able to go to one side, explain the plight of the other side, to be able to go to the other side, explain the concerns and the issues and the fears and the frustrations of the other side. Being able to bring both of these groups into one room, into one table, into one conversation, trying to find not the least common denominator, but the most common denominator, and to be able to — even if not find solutions, at least to create conditions to have a conversation about the solutions. This is my life’s purpose, and I am honored and privileged to do that from within the UN working in partnership hand in hand with young people around the world.

NELUFAR: Jayathma Wickramanayake, thank you so much for talking to me.

JAYATHMA: Thanks for having me, Nel.